Nuclear is Our Future

Wednesday, November 09, 2005

Unscientific American

Amory Lovins contributed an article to September's Scientific American which I have some serious disputes with.

The basic issue is how to spend money to lower carbon dioxide emissions. The most effective way to do this, as Lovins suggests, is to issue a blanket ban (or as close as reasonably achievable) on the production of electricity and gasoline. This misses the point in that it would force people to go back to a pre-industrial society, where the fortunate own farms and the unfortunate try to seize farms by force (the 17-word summary of world history before the Renaissance). With today's population, we would have to convert almost the whole surface of the Earth to farms. Even with that, there would be widespread starvation. Thus, we need cities, industry, and electricity.

I can't believe I'm writing this.

Energy conservation is the enemy of the consumer and the environment. It stifles innovation; because there is no new demand to serve, no new power plants are ordered. The 1973 oil embargo was one of the main causes of the 1974 nuclear industry collapse, after which no nuclear power plant orders were successful. New power plants are always better than old ones at emissions controls and lower costs, unless activists decide to sue with the specific aim of making the plants more expensive. Fuel conservation is necessary to preserve natural resources. Nuclear power plants are great at fuel conservation--that's the main thing that distinguishes them from other baseload plants.
Consumers benefit from new power plant construction when costs go down in more efficient, modern designs. Eventually, old plants are retired, and even more new ones are ordered. However, if there is no incentive (read: demand for the product, i.e., a chance to recoup investment) to develop a new plant, utilities will stop ordering new plants. Once we burn through the world's natural gas supply in the next 20 years, without more efficient plants (those that are cheaper, in total, to build and operate), utilities will order more coal-fired plants--the old, dependable technology which has the small side effect of killing people by the thousands.
Lovins states that the environment will benefit if emissions are cut when plants are closed to meet decreased demand. This would be correct if (a) demand was not on an inexorable climb upwards and (b) emissions could be indefinitely cut.
In 1979, before the personal computer revolution, Dr. John Gofman said that electricity was not necessary for more than 10% of energy use. He could not have predicted the huge increase in devices that could run on nothing but electricity--computers, cell phones, and other consumer electronics. But he didn't think it out that far. He left no room for innovation. He (and others) also count mechanical work from electric motors not as a necessary use of electricity, but as mechanical work that humans, internal combustion engines, or domestic animals could perform. Likewise with heat and light; both are seen as unnecessary because they could be produced by burning fuel. The truth is that electricity is the safest and most sustainable way to allow anyone to access energy--not just people who have the resources to collect fuel. Collecting fuel also requires the duplication of infrastructure for everyone--something that, while it does create jobs, raises costs beyond the means of the poor and is extremely inefficient. Efficiency is an abstract concept; the lives of the poor, weak, and elderly are not. We need electricity, lots of it, and the cheapest and cleanest generators available.
Emissions cannot be infinitely cut without a greater environmental impact. Would I rather have coal-generated electricity than nothing? Of course--it increases lifespan and standard of living. Today, though, we're not bound to that choice. There are two clean baseload generator types: nuclear and geothermal. Geothermal heat pumps are bound by proximity to greater-than-boiling-point heat sources--a rare condition on Earth. The vast majority of the world needs nuclear. Obviously, you can cut emissions by shutting coal-fired plants down, but only to a point. Eventually, we will hit the limit of modern technology, or there will be an innovation that requires electricity, or the poor will get angry, and we'll need something. During this time of low demand, no new plants will be designed because there's no reason to. Attempts at energy conservation in the name of the environment invariably result in entrenching the old, polluting coal-fired generators. Increasing energy use results in the construction of cleaner and cheaper plants--reducing environmental impact without affecting end-users. Utilities also have more liquid assets to work with when electricity use goes up; thus they are able to afford modern plants.
Just in case this sounds a bit Republican to you, this is clearly not supply-side economics. It clearly emphasizes the importance of demand on the entire electricity microeconomy.

Now, the details!

Lovins points to stock prices as an indicator of the economic value of investments. If a company is able to fool investors, it can make any decision look like it makes economic sense.


"The U.S. now uses 47 percent less energy per dollar of economic output than it did 30 years ago"

Interesting. That's mainly due to the exporting of industry overseas, and its replacement with less-energy-intense IT. Indeed, he mentions later:

"U.S. Environmental Protection Agency economist Skip Laitner calculates that from 1996 to mid-2005 prudent choices by businesses and consumers, combined with the shift to a more information- and service-based economy, [italics mine] cut average U.S. energy use per dollar of GDP by 2.1 percent a year—nearly three times as fast as the rate for the preceding 10 years."



"These savings [on energy per dollar of economic output, whatever he defines "economic output" as] act like a huge universal tax cut that also reduces the federal deficit. Far from dampening global development, lower energy bills accelerate it."

Because in order to make his statistics work, industry has to be exported? Exporting industry reduces the trade deficit (which is what I assume he's referring to, because it sure doesn't reduce the federal budget deficit)? Now energy efficiency causes globalization in the same way that ice cream causes drownings!

Cogeneration does make sense. How you can get heat from wind turbines (see p.6 of article) is an interesting question.

The use of oil and coal costs money. Nuclear, done right, costs less. Wind turbines and assuming that there won't be any technological advances cost much more than either option. He conveniently does not compare relative costs; he simply states that using oil and coal cost billions of dollars.

Energy conservation mainly requires the diversion of resources that could be used in developing new technology. Whether energy bills go up or down isn't the issue. The issue is the difference between costs as-is and costs using other options. Again, he doesn't compare anything, simply stating that he can make your energy costs go down. He may very well be able to. Others do better.

He is lucky to have baseload plants backing up those windmills and solar panels or else generation would be sporadic and prices would soar. 'Backing up' probably isn't the right term--windmills and solar panels provide a fraction of a percent of the electricity for the world. Germany's targets for wind capacity (the amount that could theoretically be generated if everything lined up perfectly, as opposed to what actually happens), have no bearing on the laws of physics.

Reductions in vehicle weight pose safety problems. Apparently he wants to save money at the expense of people's lives.

This "physicist" apparently doesn't know that strength means little to car safety. People were routinely killed in cars without padded dashboards and crumple zones that transmitted the energy from a collision through the chassis and into the passengers. Carbon fiber does the same thing. The issue is, fundamentally, weight. And guess who made those unsafe cars? Henry Ford. I also can't resist his comment that bicycle helmets are made of carbon fiber. They're made of styrofoam, which absorbs energy from collisions.

It is irrelevant how much of a car's energy is used to accelerate a driver. Cargo and passengers are equally, if not more, important. If you want 100 MPG with no passengers or cargo, buy a motorcycle. It saves money and is energy-efficient. However, it does not conform to the requirements of most people and is extremely dangerous in comparison to a car. Nuclear batteries could run a normal car quite well, and seem to me to be a much better alternative than either pollution or risking people's lives.

He shows a graphic on p.3 describing various losses along an electrical system. He doesn't exactly say what system it is; apparently, it's a system which converts the electrical energy coming in from a coal-fired power plant into the highest possible pressure in a fluid. Warning: unless 70+9+10+2+25+33+20+9.5=100, each percentage is not a part of the whole but a part of the remaining energy after the previous value took its cut. Just a little statistical manipulation to make the numbers look bigger than they actually are. On top of that, he doesn't seem to cite any sources for the numbers. Yes, I looked in his bibliography, which wouldn't get past a high-school English teacher. No, it's not there.
Power plant losses (70%): Nothing we can do about it. Cogeneration would be a great way to use the low-grade process heat, but that wouldn't make the electrical side of the system, which Lovins isolates for analysis, any more efficient. The number might be lowered a bit if the boiler heated gas for a turbine instead; I believe Rod Adams ran the numbers but I can't exactly locate them.
Transmission and distribution losses (2.7%): Not much we can do about this, either; barring the construction of even less efficient decentralized generators which duplicate infrastructure. Plus, it is considerably harder to convince 800,000 people to lower emissions than to lower emissions at one plant.
Motor losses (2.73%): Beats me. For electric motors, 90% is pretty efficient. It's certainly more efficient than an internal combustion engine (90% to 13%).
Drivetrain Losses (0.4914%): If you use the right size motor you don't need a drivetrain. I don't know what system he's talking about (maybe a wind generator--they need drivetrains), so I can't analyze it.
Pump losses (6.01965%): This is related not only to the design of the pump, which has nothing to do with electricity generation, but to the fluid being pumped. Again, I know nothing about the system, so I can't elaborate.
Throttle losses (9.9324225%): Yes, pressure does go down when you partially close a valve. That's what it's designed to do. Nothing inefficient about that.
Pipe losses (8.0061345%): Unless you want to coat the inside of the pipe with lubricant and contaminate the working fluid, you're going to have some friction on the inside of the pipe.
Energy output (9.5% using his method, a little over a tenth of a percent using his numbers): Here he switches units again. This neglects the fact that energy gets used in the process and the desired output is not the fastest jet of working fluid possible, but something that a controlled amount of working fluid does.

If he's worried about radiation from nuclear power plants, his home insulation exposed him to about 20 times more radiation through radon than he would have received from the plant. Details, details.


"The 4,000-square-foot structure—which also houses the original headquarters of Rocky Mountain Institute (RMI), the nonprofit group I co-founded in 1982—consumes barely more electricity than a single 100-watt lightbulb. (This amount excludes the power used by the institute’s office equipment.)"

Yes, excluding everything, it uses very little electricity.

Why do we use so much electricity? Well, here's an example: I have one 13-inch TV, one VCR, one computer, eight compact-fluorescent lightbulbs, one bedside clock/radio, two telephones, one EnergyStar refrigerator, one EnergyStar dishwasher, one EnergyStar central A/C unit, one EnergyStar clothes dryer, and one washing machine. That's it for electricity for me.
  • The 13-inch TV is about average among people I know. It's hanging by a thread (no remote, no speakers, no power switch, many record-stop-play-channels-volume quirks) and will be replaced soon. However, I cannot afford an LCD; the replacement unit will be a tube. This is one of the things Lovins neglects--the efficient items that do cost more cost a lot more.

  • My VCR is entering its eleventh year of faithful operation and will continue to do so. I can play DVDs on my computer, so I see no reason to upgrade.

  • I'm keeping this (fairly new) computer. I'm sure he would prefer it if I didn't, but I'm going to continue using it. My capital investment in this area is done for the next five or six years, just in time for no-additional-cost Dell LCD monitors and TV tuner cards.

  • I use compact fluorescents for major lighting and an electroluminescent panel attached to an extension cord to read at night. Any objections?

  • My clock/radio works. It can't use very much electricity, since I don't use the radio very much and it doesn't produce significant amounts of heat. Granted, it's running 24/7.

  • The telephones don't show up on the electric bill. However, given that I don't use them very much, and the wire in the phone cable looks about 20 AWG (1.5 mm approximately), they probably don't use very much electricity. I could get rid of one, but I doubt that would make a difference.

  • I like life, and I don't want to die of food poisoning. Thus, I'd like to keep the refrigerator. It uses about as little electricity as possible while still working, as opposed to the 1.2-cubic-foot one that I built in 7th grade and used until the refrigerant leaked out.

  • The dishwasher is a waste of energy. Got me there.

  • My A/C unit is also staying. In the intervening month between the old one dying and the installation of the new one, it was about 85-90 degrees every day. What's technology for but to solve problems like this?

  • The dryer is a creature comfort, I guess. I could put clothes out on lines, except for the small animals which frequent my yard and the occasional blizzard.

  • The washing machine is about 15 years old. When it dies, in will come another EnergyStar appliance and the electric bill will go down more.

  • I use gas for water heating, space heating, and cooking. I would like to convert to electricity for those purposes, but currently can't because it actually costs actual money, something that the head of a six-million-dollar annual budget might be prone to forget.

The average electricity use per month in my region (Northern IL) is 688 kWh/month. My peak in July and August is about 720, and my average is about 400. If Lovins can reduce his electricity consumption to 100 by turning his house into a glass box with a foot of insulation on all sides, constructed to face the Sun correctly in the winter, good for him. But I live in reality--a standard 30'x100' lot, which is more than most people, who live in apartments or row houses and really can't do anything.

Hybrids are twice as efficient as conventional cars? The Toyota Prius gets 50 MPG at best. A 1996 Toyota Corolla gets 30 on a regular basis.

Hydrogen is inefficient and misses the point. See this blog post by Engineer-Poet for details and links elsewhere.

If carbon fiber compressed gas tanks are so commonplace, why was the lack of them a principal reason for the cancellation of the proposed replacement for the space shuttle?

Measuring the costs of efficiency is barrels of oil avoided ignores the fact that some efficiency programs cost more than others and everyone would require a slightly different program. It also ignores other fuels than oil which do not require energy use cutbacks.

Ethanol is economically viable now, but won't be if we try to actually use it. See another one of Engineer-Poet's posts on the topic (Update 12/3: Engineer-Poet objected to the previous link and refers us to another).


"The second alternative is replacing oil with lower-carbon natural gas, which would become cheaper and more abundant as efficiency gains reduce the demand for electricity at peak periods."

News flash: use doesn't go down if you use it to replace something.

Generating capacity of "alternative sources" means nothing. Real, actual, usable output does. Nuclear's much greater capacity factor offsets this difference. Why is "alternative" capacity growing six times faster than nuclear (if it actually is)? Nuclear plants take 15 years to build and aren't built frequently, due largely in part to protesters. Think nuclear plants don't face obstacles, either, or are subsidized? Plus, functionality is not a popularity contest.

Wind generators are reliable in the sense that they do not malfunction frequently. However, they can't generate reliable amounts of electricity, so the mechanical reliability is irrelevant. He also misleads in giving statistics for capacity in European nations and representing them as actual generation. Admittedly, I do not have much near-term hope for nuclear under current political conditions. However, his own data (see graph p.8 of article) shows that nuclear capacity isn't flat even when new plants aren't coming online--capacity is being increased at existing plants via upgrades.

When properly combined under ideal conditions without trying to generate baseload, and combined with large-scale hydro plants, solar and wind produce very little electricity very well. If you take away the baseload plant, or have a cloudy and still day, or inconveniently live in extreme latitudes, it stops working. You can put a nuclear power plant close to water and get electricity and hot water 24/7/365.

Nuclear power plants might be terrorist targets. They would certainly be terrorist targets if flying an airplane into a containment would cause any damage. However, I am certain that they will talk about it in an attempt to terrorize us into shutting them down--which would accomplish their goals at no cost to them. As for terrorist attacks on solar arrays, I have three words: black spray paint.

Nuclear power plants' costs do not change significantly change with changes in fuel costs. About 18 months' worth of fuel is contained in each core, stabilizing electricity prices. Time after time, nuclear power plants have cleaned up behind and propped up other generation methods.

Wind-derived electricity has sold for 2.9 cents per kWh. It does this because baseload plants can prop it up and prevent an eternal rolling brownout. Despite his repeated statements, nuclear receives no net subsidy.

Here's something else obvious: 20,000 wind turbines standing still in one place are equally as useful as 200,000. Yet, he counts electrical generation by capacity, not results, so the bigger wind farm doing nothing can all of a sudden produce all of America's electricity. Uncharacteristically, he also doesn't count line losses.

Solar panels are not roofing materials.

Unless you live on the equator, there isn't much surplus power from solar panels, and certainly not at peak loads. Most of us also do not live in "big, flat-roofed commercial buildings."

If you want to raise the standard of living of the two billion people currenly off the grid in the third world, a great way to do that would be to provide them with dependable electricity. How did we do that here? Baseload power plants and a grid. Every scenario that he gives in which solar and wind even approach working have a grid to provide baseload power.

Notice how in making his case for efficiency, he uses the period of 1977-1985. Quick: how was the economy in 1977-1985? Does anyone remember? This is his great example of what an economy would look like if managed properly.

For some reason, he thinks that carbon sequestration is better than not producing it. Wait--doesn't that mean that it's better to produce less nuclear waste, rather than store it? Yes. We should reduce the amount of nuclear waste produced in this country by getting rid of coal plants, which produce much more nuclear waste per megawatt and do not even attempt to contain it in most cases, recycling spent fuel, and using the balance in batteries and medical applications.

Building nuclear power plants takes time, but replaces an entire coal plant with a zero-emission baseload energy source. What's more effective than that? We have to get electricity from somewhere; it might as well be clean. Using less and less electricity doesn't fix the basic problem and prevents new plants from coming online. Plus, our energy policy should include the incidental costs of killing thousands of people. Environmental protection isn't about making a quick buck.


"The current U.S. energy policy harms the economy and the climate by rejecting free-market principles and playing favorites with technologies. The best course is to allow every method of producing or saving energy to compete fairly, at honest prices, regardless of which kind of investment it is, what technology it uses, how big it is or who owns it."

Here he shows exactly what he thinks of the environment. Cut everything loose! Let the buyer beware! Deregulate! Me, me, me! Oh, and preventing economies of scale from stomping everyone else out requires regulation.

Modern standards allow net metering. Are all grids modern?

Why has fuel economy gone down for the category of "cars and light trucks?" Because there are many more light trucks on the road today. Fuel economy for cars has gone up.

Electrical power generation isn't a "vital project?"

Labels: , , ,

52 Comments:

  • I have bookmarked your blog and expect to enjoy perusing it regularly. I stopped reading Scientific American 10 years ago after it turned into a prevaricating cheerleader for enviro-whackos and other irrational causes.

    I have one quibble with your recent nuclear post however, as follows.

    The article reads: "However, if there is no incentive (read: demand for the product, i.e., a chance to recoup investment) to develop a new plant, utilities will keep ordering new plants."

    Do you not mean "stop ordering" rather than "keep ordering"?

    Also how do you use HTML tags? I couldn't make the bracket b thing work.

    Regards,

    Peter Palmer

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wed Nov 16, 07:53:00 AM CST  

  • I have, on occasion, heard that an American nuclear plant actually *could* tolerate an aircraft crash into the reactor building without catastrophic failure. Is this true??

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wed Nov 16, 08:01:00 AM CST  

  • Anonymous Poster 1:
    Yes, I did mean "stop." I edited the post to reflect that. Thanks.

    As for HTML, replace the [ with < etc.:
    [b]Bold[/b]

    Anonymous Poster 2:
    Yes. The concrete would compress and chip but the containment would not fail.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Wed Nov 16, 08:40:00 AM CST  

  • Just a slight correction -- in 1979 the personal computer revolution was well underway.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wed Nov 16, 11:50:00 AM CST  

  • I'm interested in hearing more about how nuclear is not subsidized.

    -Do you believe that nuclear is such a beneficial resource that it should be built regardless of subsidy levels, or would you be in favor of a market-based system for selecting energy resources, letting the chips fall where they may?

    -You point to high licensing costs as the (single) reason that nukes have not been subsidized. Unfortunately, the numbers you show $400-500 million are tiny compared to past and future subsidies to the energy.

    -In addition, it looks as though the costs you cite are per reactor DESIGN, not per reactor. Could you clarify? If so, the licensing burden per reactor would be much lower. In addition, licensing has been greatly streamlined by recent regulatory changes (meaning the past and future costs will not be the same); and the US taxpayer is now paying half the licensing cost for the new designs.

    -Your link also rails on the unfairness of having licensees pay the cost of NRC oversight. (In fact, roughly 20% is not paid by licensees, as 10% has been excluded for years and Homeland Security spending for reactor safety has, per the Energy Policy Act of 2005, for some bizarre reason been excluded from cost recovery). However, it is also true that not every energy resource has the same oversight requirements as nukes; and that cost recovery from licensees is quite common across many areas and many levels of governance to reflect these different oversight costs.

    Please share some more details on why you think nuclear power is not receiving net subsidies.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wed Nov 16, 12:23:00 PM CST  

  • Hi Stewart,

    Interesting blog. Are you connected at all to Scott Peterson, the VP of Communications at NEI?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wed Nov 16, 12:36:00 PM CST  

  • Can you please explain where in the Scientific American article Lovins proposes "issuing a ban on the production of electricity or gasoline"?

    I read the article cover to cover and don't see it.

    By Blogger Sid the Fish, at Wed Nov 16, 12:37:00 PM CST  

  • Anonymous Poster 3:
    In 1979, personal computers existed but were mainly used by institutions due to the expense and large amounts of technical expertise involved.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Wed Nov 16, 12:49:00 PM CST  

  • Anonymous Poster 4:
    1. I believe that one of the main jobs of the state is to help potentially beneficial technology get off the ground instead of requiring it to immediately succeed in the free market. For example, landing a man on the Moon involved technology that had never been dreamed of and later found widespread commercial application (computer chips, early computer memory, satellite communications). This means almost every time that technology advances faster.

    2. High licensing costs are not the only reason that nuclear costs so much more than it should. Regulations are far more stringent than they need to be, the process is far more stringent than it needs to be, and practices designed to accomodate fossil-fuel plants (the fuel surcharge especially) increase costs to the point where not "subsidizing" nuclear would place it at an unfair disadvantage. That's not a subsidy because it's government overregulation that made it necessary--it's a funded mandate.

    3. Some of the costs are per-design, some are per-reactor. In the US, the difference was blurred because there is no standardized design. Almost every plant has some subtle difference, requiring certification of that design. Today, that wouldn't happen because the designs have caught up with the demand for new units. The initial standardization problems were simply an artifact of the immediate demand for working, scaled-up reactors soon after they were invented.
    Taxpayers and licensees should not split licensing costs 50-50. They should each pay for the costs that they incur. Example: the NRC orders a licensee to prepare a report. The report would never have been prepared had the NRC not demanded it; thus, the NRC should pay for it. That's the way it works everywhere else.

    4. Receiving a payment equal to the amount paid to the NRC every year is not a subsidy, it is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Paying 82% of the costs incurred by somebody else is still far too much.

    I will post a detailed article at www.niof.org and announce it here. In fact, I have been working on it.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Wed Nov 16, 01:12:00 PM CST  

  • Anonymous Poster #5:
    No connection. No relation, no money, no shared equipment, nothing. I wish I was getting money for this.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Wed Nov 16, 01:13:00 PM CST  

  • Sid:

    He intends to chip away at electricity and oil use until it is zero or as close as he can get. I specifically said "as close as reasonably achievable." His basic premise is to keep cutting use indefinitely--that's the entire point of the article, that consumption can be cut and we don't need any new capacity.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Wed Nov 16, 01:17:00 PM CST  

  • "Chipping away" at the consumption of a fuel by shifting to other sources and encouraging efficiency is NOT the same as "issuing a ban on the production of electricity or gasoline", which is what your post originally said.

    Let me ask again in a different way: Can you point to any single place in this article where Lovins advocates a "ban" on the production of energy or gasoline?

    By Blogger Sid the Fish, at Wed Nov 16, 01:35:00 PM CST  

  • >> In 1979, personal computers existed but were mainly used by institutions due to the expense and large amounts of technical expertise involved.

    Actually, that's not true.

    Personal computers in 1979, notably early Apple models amd the Tandy TRS-80, were primarily used by hobbyists and small businesses. They were not widely adopted by institutions until the advent of the IBM PC in 1981.

    Institutions were using mainframes and minicomputers (like the PDP-11) with dumb terminals in that period.

    By Blogger Sid the Fish, at Wed Nov 16, 01:41:00 PM CST  

  • What a great article.

    I had to read it all as you knocked down the arguments piece by piece. Hell, I want a nuclear plant in [i]my[/i] backyard now!

    This will be great ammunition in my next showdown with the whackos...

    By Anonymous GreenBear, at Wed Nov 16, 01:57:00 PM CST  

  • What a great article.

    I had to read it all as you knocked down the arguments piece by piece. Hell, I want a nuclear plant in my backyard now!

    This will be great ammunition in my next showdown with the whackos...

    By Anonymous GreenBear, at Wed Nov 16, 01:58:00 PM CST  

  • Stewart,

    I very much look forward to your detailed review of subsidies. I hope it will be detailed, and even contain references that others can track down.

    I also would hope to see a detailed justification for what portion of the regulation of nuclear power is unneeded (and therefore shouldn't be borne by the industry). If you come out saying no regulation is justified, it won't seem a particularly viable position.

    Your comparison between nuclear power and putting a man on the moon as justification for government subsidies to help the industry get going is basically an infant industry argument. This was, possibly, true in 1950. It might be true today with regards to fusion energy.

    However, it has very little merit with respect to fission energy. Massive public investment has already occurred for five decades in multiple countries on civilian reactors, waste management, and enrichment technologies. Tens of billions more has been spent on military designs, which, as we know from the aircraft market (and the trade dispute between Airbus and Boeing), do have some civilian spillovers.

    Furthermore, it's hard to argue the firms in this sector are infants: the reactor manufacturers and the utilities looking to buy these technologies are among the largest firms on the planet. What'll it take for this infant, now nearly eligible for membership in AARP, to walk on its own?

    With respect to your point about licensing and non-standardized designs, this seems to have been a choice the market made in the US. When this choice turned out to be a bad one (because the plants didn't work quite well as planned, and were much more difficult to build and operation than standardized units would have been), industry boosters railed on the idiotic regulators. Of course, this choice was not replicated by France, so it would seem hard to say it was an inevitable outcome. It is also hard to argue that NRC's increased regulatory oversight (and related costs) was unwarranted given the performance problems and periodic actual or near accidents of many of the early plants.

    Your argument with respect to whom pays for what (if the NRC requests it, they should pay for it) is way off-base. Would you also argue that if the FDA demands tests to prove new food additives and pharmaceuticals are safe, these should be paid by the taxpayer? Or that if the National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration demands crash-worthy cars, all the design work to meet these requirements should come from Uncle Sam? Or that the Pell Grant program should compensate students for their time filling out college loan applications because they won't issue the cash without it?

    This makes no economic sense. Nor does it send the proper signals for the market participants with the most specific knowledge on their products, and the greatest leverage to take action to minimize the costs of compliance (i.e., by killing products that they suspect are unsafe early) to act in appropriate ways. We operate in a market system, don't we? Where prices are supposed to reflect the resource intensity and riskiness of various consumption and production options?

    You can argue that some of the ways the NRC implements its mission are inefficient and unproductive. You can suggest ways for them to reduce system-wide costs. But arguing that anything they require to protect public safety in plant design, siting, and safety should be borne by taxpayers lacks merit entirely.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wed Nov 16, 02:25:00 PM CST  

  • I knew we were in trouble several years ago when PBS presented a Nova special about global warming. They concluded that warming is occurring but couldn't say for sure that it was the fault of humans.

    What struck me was an interview with a spokesperson for Greenpeace who refused to even consider proven non-CO2-emitting energy sources, like hydro-electric and nuclear generation. Of course, she claimed that we could meet our needs with solar and wind power.

    It occurred to me at the time that as power plants start consuming all the natural gas available, a lot of people will start going back to wood stoves to heat their homes. And Greenpeace will pressure the feds to put a stop to that. When I first moved to this area natural gas wasn't available in all places and a lot of people had all-electric homes, but they all put in coal or wood stoves to save money.

    Sadly our media don't tell us the truth about our choices if we adopt the idea that CO2 is a pollutant. People are angry about the prices of gasoline, but they are encouraged to blame oil company executives rather than all the blockages to exploration.

    I agree that nuclear is one of the few realistic choices, but here in Utah it won't get the time of day. We're producing a lot of coalbed methane, but I doubt that it'll prevent the prices from increasing. As long as we're enthralled by Eco-radicals we're like people on a raft headed for the falls, but keep fighting over who will man the tiller.

    By Blogger AST, at Wed Nov 16, 11:54:00 PM CST  

  • Dear AST -

    There are two separate issues your posting touches on:

    1) Will nuclear will be a part of the low-carbon fuel mixture?

    2) If it is part of that mixture, will it earn that place through competitive economics, or will be be placed there by government fiat?

    It's this second question that is usually ignored by nuclear-boosters around the country. Whenever government fiat drives technology choice, taxpayers end up the losers, and the technical performance of the Congressionally-underwritten choice lack the efficiency, resiliency, and dynamism of what would emerge from real competition between technical alternatives.

    One is not an Eco-radical simply by challenging the government-subsidized ascendancy of nuclear power. That's why libertarian groups like the Cato Institute routinely rail on the technology.

    If carbon is the problem, get the starting conditions right before you coronate nuclear energy. Tax carbon emissions and see how the market adjusts. Strip nuclear of the political gifts it's amassed over the past 50 years.

    Maybe in a free market nuclear would win over shorter-payback, lower risk (but smaller scale) co-gen or alternatives. Maybe not though. Surprise changes, such as coal getting its act together and figuring out how to implement effective sequestration, might happen instead.

    But make nuclear prove that it's lower carbon profile is the cheapest solution to the problem, not simply the most politically-connected.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thu Nov 17, 10:47:00 AM CST  

  • Stewart, truly great article. I see why OSM linked you. Thoughtful in-depth, and thorough.
    Do you have any thoughts on the Shoreham Nuclear power Plant * which was built on Long Island, at incredible expense to taxpayers (mostly due to protestors) and then the plant went offline (due to protestors) without ever being put into use...

    It now is the home for a handful of windmills which provide no practical energy source for local residents. The taxpayer inherited a $600+ million debt which they must pay back slowly...monthly...for 26+ years.

    Nuclear is our future...you're right. Until some new technology goes mainstream nuclear energy is the logical choice....and we have a languishing investment sitting in the heart of the Northeast, we have the blackout in recent memory, and still the plant is out of commission....any thought on that?

    (BTW, again, great work)

    By Anonymous QuickRob, at Thu Nov 17, 01:11:00 PM CST  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Daniel, at Sat Nov 19, 07:36:00 PM CST  

  • This post sets up the straw man argument that Lovins promotes shutting old power plants down without having something to take their place. As a result of this, it is argued that there would be wide-spread humanitarian and environmental disasters. Of course, this is not what is is suggested in the article at all. Lovins suggests moving gradually to a lower carbon economy through the use of voluntary conservation, a distributed grid, gas cogeneration plants, and hefty (although not complete) use of renewables. In fact, the only time it directly quotes Lovins is from Lovins's poorly chosen examples.

    It also promotes nuclear without addressing how to address its severe disadvantages: waste (at all levels of radioactivity), regulations, long lead time (not all of which is due to high levels of regulation), high costs (even in China, with lower regulations, they are spending $1b for a plant), decommissioning, and low public trust (which leads to high regulation). Nor does it have an answer to the most pressing issue of what can be done to our old and unreliable centralized grid, other than add more demand to it.

    The post also compares the potential of nuclear, if it were unregulated, to the potentional of renewables, with the disadvantage going to renewables. It would be more honest to compare them both in terms of one or the other. Comparing current production: Nuclear is cheap, reliable, accounts for about 20% of our current usage, is heavily regulated, is part of an inefficient production and delivery system, and has unresolved problems with waste. Renewables are more expensive (for the time being), have less polution, account for very little of our current usage, can be installed quickly in smaller applications, are becoming increasingly efficient, and do not mesh well with the current grid system. Coal is cheap and reliable, but costs a great deal in terms of environmental and human costs. Gas cogeneration is on the increase, but not indefinitely because of fuel costs and potential shortages. It also is not a perfect match for the current grid. Comparing future, potential production would deliver the same results with the same grid system; however, the grid is not reliable and is overdue for replacement or at least major repairs. If it were replaced with a distributed grid, the comparison would be: Nuclear could hang around long enough for all the plants to be decommisioned and for other capacity to replace it. Coal would eventually face the same fate. Renewables and cogeneration would stand out as primary energy producers because their strengths blend well with a distributed grid. This system is what Lovins is proposing, not removing existing plants with no replacement capacity just because existing plants are inefficient.

    The ironic thing is that there are several links several to The Ergosphere, which is a site on energy writen by an energy engineer. His posts are indeed well-thought out, insightful and full of links and calculations to make his points. Unfortunately, there are no links to any of the Engineer-Poet’s posts such as Cogen at Home, Tide Turning II, and Where to Go From Here, which all address to some extent the same concepts of a decentralized grid with cogen and some input from renewables. EP also states that coal plants with advanced clean technologies can be used for base loads if needed.

    By Blogger j&amp;c, at Mon Nov 21, 03:38:00 PM CST  

  • Sid:

    I cannot point to a "single place" where he advocates government intervention to lower consumption of electricity and gasoline to zero or as close as reasonably acheivable (I specifically included "as close as reasonably acheivable") because he uses the entire article to do so. You have to take all of the information in the article and unite it into a conclusion. That's known as reading comprehension. If you operate on sound bites, I can't talk to you effectively or intelligently.

    And, yes, hobbyists and businesses have technical expertise. Institutions were beyond the PDP-11 and dumb terminals and were well on their way to the client-server model.

    Notice also how we're bickering over minutiae instead of the actual point?

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Sat Nov 26, 04:19:00 PM CST  

  • Anonymous Poster 6:

    It doesn't matter how long the industry has been operating, but how many units exist. The computer industry had produced millions of units by 1985, and needed little to no support. The nuclear industry, however, had only produced around 500. It still needs help. Government money and intervention are needed to solve problems that the market cannot. What do I mean by help? Let 'em compete. Government intervention has previously kept the costs at nuclear power plants unnecessarily high. The incorrect reaction is to throw money at them. The correct reaction is to level the playing field and, if necessary, give them a hand up.

    The companies involved are indeed large. However, their nuclear business is fairly small in comparison. Smaller companies simply couldn't absorb the high initial costs. A mature industry would be selling reactors left and right, which is obviously not happening.

    I would not argue that the government should pay development costs. I would argue that they shouldn't make the process so expensive that it costs more every year to hold a license than to buy fuel. Sure, some costs are recovered from mature industries. But strangling a new industry by dumping it in the market, purely on principle, is a really bad idea.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Sat Nov 26, 04:36:00 PM CST  

  • Anonymous Poster 7:

    >>Strip nuclear of the political gifts it's amassed over the past 50 years.

    I'd agree to that if you could strip fossil fuels of their equally pure-chance advantage of being in the market first.

    >>But make nuclear prove that it's lower carbon profile is the cheapest solution to the problem, not simply the most politically-connected.

    Partially, that's what I'm doing with this site. However, taking the cheapest (not best) way out results in a lot of damage to what the market currently considers externalities. That's what regulation is for.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Sat Nov 26, 04:40:00 PM CST  

  • QuickRob:

    It should have been started at the earliest possible moment. However, there are problems with starting 30-year-old reactors for the first time or even restarting them. In Italy, where they shut down their nuclear power plants in 1987 after a referendum, they are considering restarting the plants but might not be able to. A careful technical evaluation of the plant would need to be conducted, and it still might not work.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Sat Nov 26, 04:45:00 PM CST  

  • J&C:

    Lovins does not promote shutting down old plants without replacements. He says that we should lower electricity consumption. Basic economics will tell you that a lack of demand for electricity will result in lowered supply of electricity. Supply comes from power plants. Thus, while he does not advocate it, his plan has the effect of preventing new construction of power plants of any type. Look at 1973 for an example.

    I quoted Lovins' statements on the effects of energy conservation on the economy, which were misleading or inaccurate. They're still things he said, and they're still wrong. Tell me how
    "These savings [on energy per dollar of economic output, whatever he defines "economic output" as] act like a huge universal tax cut that also reduces the federal deficit. Far from dampening global development, lower energy bills accelerate it."
    isn't a statement. I'd also like to hear why I can't paraphrase a general argument that would take six pages if I wrote it out.

    Of course I don't explain everything about nuclear energy in one blog post. A blog is a news feed, not an entire website. I have a website and discussion board for these purposes and you might try visiting them to look for more details.

    >>(even in China, with lower regulations, they are spending $1b for a plant)
    ---
    Ah, what's a few billion between friends?

    >>Nor does it have an answer to the most pressing issue of what can be done to our old and unreliable centralized grid, other than add more demand to it.
    ---
    That's not within the scope of the article. But now that you want to know, why can't we work to improve it? The grid I'm on (ComEd, Chicago) seems pretty reliable--I don't remember a blackout in the last five years in the city itself.

    I don't propose the removal of all regulations. More regulations are not the answer; better ones are.

    Nuclear energy does not have unresolved problems with waste. Six doable solutions occur off the top of my head: the Integral fast Reactor, which can use waste as fuel; Yucca Mountain, which is counterproductive but would work; conventional reprocessing such as what is used in France (or a number of dry techniques which have been developed since); dry-cask storage onsite; spent fuel pools; and discharging the waste to the environment, which is the absolute worst solution but coal-fired power plants do it all the time with their nuclear waste (more per megawatt than a nuclear plant).

    Why is the grid such a bad idea again?

    Interestingly, Engineer-Poet is pro-nuclear. So much for the ad hominem argument.

    Yes, coal can be used for baseload. It currently is. It also has major environmental and public health problems. We need to replace coal-fired power plants with a clean sustainable baseload energy source. That's geothermal in some places and nuclear everywhere else.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Sat Nov 26, 05:18:00 PM CST  

  • Stewart,

    Glad to see you've updated your posts on this thread. I wanted to go back to your argument that the nuclear industry, because it has produced only 500 units deserves government subsidy.

    Every time there is a new generation of computer technology, the firms have to bit the bullet, pump in billions of dollars, and hope their bet pays off.

    There are many large scale technologies for which there are 500 or 1000 units in operation around the world. Oil refineries would be one. So should the government pay big bucks every time one of these gets built? At what point is the nuclear industry mature enough to be removed from the public trough? How do you see that happening?

    If 500 units aren't enough for them to get their act together, what possible benefit is there of dumping billions more in taxpayer funds to get them another mere 6 or 8? Clearly, they are very slow learners, so another 600 will be required before they move out from being an infant industry in your vantage point.

    Your point about giving poor nuclear a level playing field simply doesn't hold up empirically. It has received far more in subsidies than its competitors.

    While the nuclear business may be a relatively small portion of some overall businesses of the global conglomerates involved with the industry, this is not a relevant argument. The firms can, and do, make large investments into sectors they think are financially attractive. These investments are not limited by the size of their existing involvement in that sector; in fact, they often acquire entirely new business lines. Furthermore, they can, and do, routinely absorb substantial operating and strategic risks to make this happen.

    Don't you think that, just maybe, the reason GE and Westinghouse and Areva aren't stepping up with all their own cash is because they don't think the economics are quite as good as you think they are?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Mon Nov 28, 10:58:00 PM CST  

  • I don't think the economics are very good right now, under the current political conditions. They agree.

    Counting subsidies in dollars can be misleading. Is it a handout or a hand up? Is the government needlessly throwing money at problems it created, instead of solving the problem? Is all money received by industry from government a subsidy, especially if it is used to perform a function for the government? What is fundamentally wrong with trying to make the best decision instead of the cheapest decision? In a market economy, government money is necessary to make such decisions, as they cannot be legislated.

    Fossil fuels have an advantage because they were in the market first. Even if they received zero subsidies (which they don't), a new technology would need a subsidy for a certain period to have a chance at breaking into the market. This applies everywhere. It could reasonably come in the form of a production tax credit, which "alternatives" already benefit greatly from.

    "Dumping billions" is not what I propose. Nuclear is already at a cost disadvantage because:
    -It internalizes what are tradiationally externalities--waste especially. Coal-fired power plants produce more nuclear waste per megawatt, but simply discharge it at litle to no cost. The market does not currently reward being ethical. Government intervention is necessary here.
    -It is held to higher standards. No other type of power plant is built to withstand every possible scenario and then some, which is the design philosophy of nuclear power plants. Basic precautions against gas explosions are taken at gas-fired plants, for example. This works fine to prevent gas explosions, but if it were held to the same standards, gas-fired plants would have all sorts of complex alarm systems, evacuation plans, triple-layered containment systems, mass spectrometers, etc., which aren't necessary. Defense-in-depth has never worked. Now that we have more experience with nuclear power plants than in the 1960s, we have more knowledge of what is necessary and what isn't. We also have better computers to analyze what is needed and what isn't, something they didn't have when the current generation of power plants were designed. Regulations haven't caught up. For example, containments are supposed to perform up to 60 psi. However, construction regulations make it basically impossible to construct a containment that fails under 100 psi. While it is true that no nuclear power plant design has been outright rejected by the NRC, no nuclear power plant design has ever gotten through the approval process unchanged. The NRC would rather hold up certification of plant designs, condemning thousands of people per year to premature deaths, than take a risk on the abstract number of part failures going up.
    -Nuclear power plants are expensive initial investments. Not many banks can issue a $15 billion loan, and those that can are reluctant. They would much rather finance a coal-fired power plant, and this preference is reflected in interest rates.
    -A utility can pass on fuel costs to consumers. Thus, there is no advantage to using less fuel--nuclear's strong point.
    -A utility cannot pass on the construction cost of a nuclear power plant with a bill surcharge. It all has to come from liquid assets. This is perhaps the only item which a business cannot raise prices to buy.
    -Protesters. Utilities don't need controversy.
    -Construction time is extremely long for a number of reasons. This raises the likelihood of problems, increases interest payments, and causes huge increases in labor costs.
    -Lawsuits can be assumed. No utility wants to draw the wrath of the national anti-nuclear movement. Seabrook is a great example.
    -Licensing procedure is unnecessarily complicated and costly. This goes back to the NRC: they don't care about the effects of delaying, just the abstract failure rate of components
    -Manufacturing economics is crystal clear on the fact that first-of-a-kind units of anything are more expensive. Almost every nuclear power plant in the US is first-of-a-kind. Standardization would help this but not immediately.
    -Fees. No other industry pays more in government fees than for fuel. There is no better way to choke an infant industry than to expect it to support itself and others.
    -Insurance: nobody wants to insure a nuclear power plant. This is not due to accident rates but the expected monetary costs of any accident if it happened.

    The point is that no matter how much money you dump on an institutional problem, it will still be there when you get done dumping money. Fix the problem. Do it right the first time--it's cheaper and sustainable.

    When will we know that nuclear is a mature industry? 647 new plants.
    No, obviously, I can't give a threshold number. Currently, all the signs of an infant industry are still there: first-of-a-kind units, limited production (only about 500 units), first- and second-generation technology still in place, and over-conservative regulation based on a lack on full knowledge of the systems when the regulations were enacted. The number of units is a symptom, not the problem itself.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Tue Nov 29, 04:18:00 AM CST  

  • It's cool when you other folks cite me,
    Even if you just do it to spite me
        But you will get the axe
        If you don't have the facts
    If you can't get it right, you can bite me.

    "Solar panels are not roofing materials."

    Really?  I'm so glad that your expertise will keep anyone from wasting their money on this or this.

    </sarcasm>

    Stewart, you appear to think that my post "Anatomy of a press release" is pertinent to your claim that ethanol is worthless.  It is not.  It is, in fact, the opposite; Panda Energy's proposal to use bio-gas instead of natural gas for distillation (and integrate the rest of the materials cycle, by feeding the leftover grains to animals on-site and eliminating the drying step) addresses my single biggest complaint about fuel ethanol and boosts the potential corn-to-fuel efficiency well over 50%.  My post noted that they could have gone further, and squeezed considerably more useful energy out of their system by cogenerating electricity with the distillation fuel.

    On the other issues, you're correct that the RMI claims are confused to the point of obscurantism and loaded with errors.  Unfortunately for any point you are trying to make, so are yours.  Your blatant factual errors don't make you look any better.  If you want to be taken seriously, you are going to have to do better work than that.  (If you don't mind being used as a bad example by the anti-nuclear lobby, you don't have to change a thing.)

    By Blogger Engineer-Poet, at Tue Nov 29, 07:12:00 PM CST  

  • Industrial development is full of examples of multi-billion dollar investments. Large chemical plants. Chip fabrication facilities. Oil refineries. These are market investments, paid for with private capital.

    The fact that nuclear plants have high political risks, and take a long time to build (exposing investors to severe market risks)mean that an efficient market should find quicker, less risky ways to meet power demands. This IS the market doing the right thing, not some failure of rationality.

    The Renewable Energy Policy Project some years ago examined your argument regarding start-up subsidies to nuclear power. They were huge. The industry is not still in start-up mode and it needs to leave the public trough.

    Your arguments on nuclear being held to "higher standards" are not well founded. It requires higher regulation in the same way that new pharmaceuticals do relative to generic vitamins. It requires a higher level of defense because the damages from a large accident are so much higher. These are not some unfair singling out of the industry, but rather rational public policy decisions reflecting real attributes of the energy source.

    You'll need to provide more documentation on your point regarding emissions of radioactivity from coal before I give it any validity. It sounds like you are comparing routine emissions of radiactive particles across the two energy sources. But that isn't the point. The containment and defense requirements at nuclear plants are not there to deal with operating emissions, but rather to contain the potentially catastrophic surges during accidents. In addition, there are regular emissions from nuclear plants, day-in and day-out, that are poorly characterized and rarely measured.

    That said, coal should have to pay its full freight on air emissions, and if they do and it makes nuclear financeable with no public subsidy, more power to you. Most modelling suggests that even that will not be sufficient to bridge the gap.

    You've got to stop calling nuclear an "infant industry." It's a ridiculous argument. Similarly, the relative cost of licensing versus fuels is irrelevant. As you so frequently state, the cost structure of nuclear is one with very low fuel costs. It is also one with very high potential social costs if plant operators screw up and there is an accident. In this type of industry, it is both reasonable and healthy that there be solid public oversight, and that the cost of that oversight be reflected in the cost of the energy produced by those plants.

    Nuclear energy has never been starved of public funds and taxpayer support. Claims like this are pure delusion. If the energy source is the panacea that you and NEI claim it is, let the big boys step up to the table and put their own chips on the line. No matter how many excuses you lay out for why they can't and shouldn't have to put their own capital at risk, the bottom line is they don't believe in their technology enough to do so. I say too bad then; no pay, no play.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Tue Nov 29, 08:02:00 PM CST  

  • Engineer-Poet:

    Given the dimensions, none of those look like they would work as conventional shingles. If you can provide more information, that would be helpful.

    I do not say that ethanol is worthless. I say it doesn't scale up. First you attack me for saying it works now but doesn't scale up (saying that it doesn't scale up and how dare I say it does), then you do a 180 on the issue and attack me from the opposite perspective for saying the exact same thing. Your numbers are still valid, despite your opinions thereof unless more explanation is forthcoming. If you believe that my link didn't do the subject justice, please suggest another, more complete overview.

    I admit that this post was badly written and choppy. A second post with some additions is coming soon. However, I warn you that attacks like yours have created a reputation for us as arrogant among the general public. Learn how to talk to people.

    Please describe any other "blatant factual errors" my post is "loaded with" that I haven't already satisfactorily addressed. If you are referring to other posts, please go there and we'll talk. I'd prefer a civilized discussion, but if you can't handle that, I can accept mudslinging.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Tue Nov 29, 11:58:00 PM CST  

  • Anonymous:

    Why must an unregulated market be the answer to everything? Often, the market makes a decision which kills people or has other "external" consequences. The government should step in with regulation, as the market rewards maintaining externalities, not internalizing them.

    The nuclear industry still shows every sign of being an infant industry, as I said earlier. It will not stop being an infant industry until those criteria are no longer met. Likewise the space program, and coal until deforestation made it economically viable and bans on coal-burning were lifted.

    If you really want to see nuclear compete in a free market, level the regulatory playing field. Coal is not subject to exorbitant fees, ridiculous (or even sensible) containment regulations, multiple-stage approval processes at the local, state, and federal levels, ridiculous safety margins, and regulatory micromanagement.

    The damages from a single nuclear accident--the only one we can look at as an example, Chernobyl (which wasn't even strictly an accident)--are dwarfed by the routine deaths caused by coal (30,000 per year, every year, to 4,400 maximum total). If we replaced all coal-fired plants with nuclear plants, we could have a Chernobyl incident every two months and still come out ahead from a public health perspective. If enough material were stolen and successfully processed to produce enough bomb-grade material for two nuclear weapons every year (not possible), and both went off in major urban centers (12,000 deaths each), that would still kill fewer people than coal. If you had both happen, you could have two terrorist nuclear weapons plus a Chernobyl-and-a-third every year, with no net public health effects. Of course, the terrorist attacks and Chernobyl-scale incidents would get much more press coverage, and we would go back to killing people with coal fumes. It is the sort of hypercaution that requires nuclear to be perfect while coal can wreak havoc that is guaranteed to strangle it in an attempt to work in a free market. Did coal develop this way--get perfect first and sell well later? Has any successful industry?

    If it's such a mature industry, why do you compare it to a new pharmaceutical?

    Coal contains 4.5 parts per million of a combination of uranium and thorium, which is not contained. The result is a level of radioactivity around coal-fired facilities comparable to Three Mile Island. It's still completely safe from a radiological standpoint, but obviously higher than would ever be permitted at a nuclear power plant. This disparity is one of the biggest examples of regulatory bias against nuclear. Sources on coal radioactivity: ORNL and the US Geological Survey. Data citations are available on those pages. The only way that coal would have completely equivalent containment to nuclear would be zero emissions. That would be incredibly costly and extremely difficult to do on a large scale.

    The only "nuclear power plant" that you can find that allows emissions of radioisotopes is Sellafield. I put "nuclear power plant" in quotes because it's a 1950s-era wet reprocessing facility with a nuclear power plant attached, and all emissions come from the reprocessing facility. Yet Helen Caldicott spreads this garbage around as if nuclear power plants, or even sensibly-constructed dry reprocessing facilities, emit radioactive materials. The radiation from a nuclear power plant comes from the contained materials inside only. No discharges occur, except the gases krypton and xenon, which are contained until they decay to inert substances.

    What are the social costs of killing 30,000 people every year? More than a science experiment on a suicidally-dangerous reactor design which everyone but the Soviets abandoned in the 1940s that killed 4,400 (maybe) and happened once? And how does your deregulated free market measure social costs?

    What use are public funds when they all go to partly fix problems that overregulation created? Is robbing Peter to pay Paul a subsidy? Throwing money at problems isn't a solution. We are willing to try things if the NRC isn't waiting with superior resources and authority to slam us every step of the way.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Wed Nov 30, 01:22:00 AM CST  

  • "I do not say that ethanol is worthless. I say it doesn't scale up."

    Then why'd you cite a post of mine which says nothing about the scaling issues of ethanol?

    The Ergosphere is 100% indexed by Google.  This leaves few excuses.

    By Blogger Engineer-Poet, at Thu Dec 01, 03:30:00 AM CST  

  • If you have a suggestion as to a better post to link to I'd like to hear it. Seriously. You know your work better than I do.

    I'm not giving "excuses." I'm asking a "question." There is no "conspiracy" to "misquote" you and malign your work.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Thu Dec 01, 09:25:00 PM CST  

  • Something like The money-grubbing mendacity of the ethanol lobby might have been appropriate.

    Regardless, it's not my place to do your homework for you.  If you want a blog worth reading, it's up to you to make certain that all your links are apposite.

    By Blogger Engineer-Poet, at Sat Dec 03, 08:29:00 AM CST  

  • Duly noted; thank you.

    I thought I had found a good link. You thought it wasn't and referred me to a better one. If I knew your work as well as you do I would be doing it first.

    By Blogger Stewart Peterson, at Sat Dec 03, 11:43:00 PM CST  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Car Loans Home, at Sat Dec 31, 06:28:00 AM CST  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous What Is Solar Energy, at Mon Jan 23, 06:40:00 AM CST  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Car Loan Home, at Wed Feb 01, 06:40:00 PM CST  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous What Is Solar Energy, at Wed Mar 01, 05:25:00 AM CST  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous fast home equity loans, at Fri May 05, 11:57:00 AM CDT  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Paul Adams, at Sun Jun 11, 01:34:00 PM CDT  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous apply for a secured loan, at Tue Jul 04, 09:59:00 AM CDT  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous architecture scholarships, at